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Anybody else have lost tool file issues on a Matrix Control?

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Stuart
Forums Member
#1 | Posted: 21 Sep 2008 21:24
Reply 
O/K, I'm STILL having issues with losing the tool file on my Matrix equipped Integrex 200-IVS. What interests me is if any other Integrex operators have the same problem, or if it's truly an isolated incident as Mazak claims it is. I suspect it isn't, since I talked with a couple operators at IMTS that have the same issues.

My Matrix control has issues with losing the tool file from day 1. It's been documented many times, and Mazak has updated the software 2 or 3 times. It's getting better, but it still happens. Of course the hard part is that it's really somewhat of an intermittant problem, which is of course what makes it hard to diagnose and of course repair properly.

I'm getting more than a wee bit tired of having to back up my tool file and parameters on a daily basis, but that's the only real solution. I have a handle on why the tool file (and occasionaly the setups) dissapear. What I really need is someone who understands the correlation between the tool tables, parameters, chuck jaw data, and the tool models. I pretty much know now why and under what circumstances my tool file gets lost. I'm just not sure whether the root cause lies in hardware or software. If anyone has a solution I'd love to know it.

Here's what happens. When you power off the machine, windows closes down all the oeprating programs, which in this case is the HMI interface Mazatrol At740main application. If this application shuts down normally, there's no problem. If this application hangs and you get the windows message that says this program is not responding, I may, or may not be screwed. Originally when I saw this message I had a 50/50 chance of losing my tool file. Now it's thankfully down to once every couple weeks rather than a daily occurance. The software updates basically allow more time for the program to attempt to shut down normally. It's when the control doesn't power down normally AND I have made a change to the tool file that the problems occur.

I think what happens is the tool file and data are stored in SRAM. Some of the data is backed up to FLROM but not all of it. All of the data is rewrtitten from temporary memory to a freshly compiled file on the hard drive when the machine powers down. If the program doesn't have time to shut down, or hangs during shutdown, the file doesn't get written properly. Next time you go to power up the control, the machine attmepts to reload the data and compares it to the previous values. If they are different, it will boot, but you will lose all your tool data.

If I haven't made any changes to the tool file I never seem to have issues, so it's the change of data that triggers the problem. Yes, I'd rather have the control zero out the tool data, which means it doesn't have any tools defined, so it can't crash from say an incorrect tool offset. Oddly this machine has recently started to put tools back in the wrong pockets as well for no apparent reason. It's happened 3 times now and it always has inadvertantly swapped the tools from the tool arm to the wrong pocket. ie. The tool arm grabs tool 25 from the magazine and exchanges it for tool 20 which is in the spindle. When the machine goes back to cutting, it puts tool 20 in pocket 25 and goes and gets the next tool. After the next tool change the machine alarms out when it tries to put tool 25 back in pocket 25, and it's already got a tool there since it incorrectly put tool 20 there previously. At least the machine doesn't load the wrong tool, but I clearly have no clue as to why the control is doing this in the first place.

The lost tool file issue gets really frustrating when your busy and fail to backup everything before you power down. Man does it really get annoying when you have a couple hundred tools defined, and you added maybe a dozen since your last backup. Interestingly, as I start to zero in on the issue, I notice that I always lose the tool file, I occasionally lose the set ups and chuck jaw data, but I never lose the tool model definitions. Clearly they are not stored in the same place, and it may be that the model definitions never make it out of the virtual side of the control in the first place.

I'd sure like to know if others are having the same issues. It would be a whole lot easier to get it fixed properly perhaps...

Thanks,

Stu
integrexman
Admin
#2 | Posted: 22 Sep 2008 06:22
Reply 
Stu,

What is the date your machine was made? We have a Integrex (Made Feb06) that has had the Tool Data get lost and a Matrix mill lose its Tool Data as well. It has only happened a couple of times and not in the last 6 months. We have Version BCB on our Integrex 100's.
out2thow
Forums Member
#3 | Posted: 25 Sep 2008 10:56
Reply 
Does it happen when you power off in tool data screen? If your not sure, be sure to always return to the position screen before turning the control off. The control writes to the HDD when the screen changes, so if the screen doesn't change and you power off, you could loose your tool data, same goes with program edit.
Stuart
Forums Member
#4 | Posted: 26 Sep 2008 22:37
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Good thought, but I'm almost always in the position screen when I power off sicne I like to make sure I'm home before powering off. I never stay in the tool page, since I'm not bright enough to guarantee somebody won't wander by and type in a wrong value.

I'm pretty sure the issue is how the fiel gets written to the hard drive though.
MrMazak
Forums Member
#5 | Posted: 3 Feb 2009 15:47
Reply 
We had this problem on a HCN4000II and traced it to a bad MR-J2 unit. The MR-J2 holds the magazine data and pocket number memory. Could be a bad battery in the unit also. We had tools disappear and multiple pockets of the same number etc.
sakis
Forums Member
#6 | Posted: 3 Feb 2009 16:40
Reply 
I lost the tool data on a Qt100 with matrix control the other day after a power outage. I have 2 of these machines and 1 lost the data and the other one didnt. both machines were in cycle when they lost power.
Stuart
Forums Member
#7 | Posted: 11 Feb 2009 13:32
Reply 
I just noticed another tool file issue that's cropped up. I've seen it before but never paid much attention to it. Some how my tool files are getting corrupted. I wasted 3 hours last night trying to get a stupid simple tool path cor an ID boring process to aork right. I had to use a 3/8" carbide bar whittling out a bore from .465" out to 2.693 or so in .05" increments. I only needed to go .2" deep from the face. A stupid simple bar in toolpath. It kept getting generated as a tool path that went in a shorter distance on each pass and the finish pass would wipe out the tool on the outside corner becasue it wanted to take way to big a chip load. I tried all the parameters, cycles, checked the tool nose angle, etc. Then I noticed a wee corrupted looking japanese character in a typically unused data box. It was in the same box for every defintion of the tool and it couldn't be cleared or changed.

I deleted the tool, recreated it with exactly the same geometry, tocuhed it off and it worked just fine. What's up?
twocan
Forums Member
#8 | Posted: 11 May 2009 13:52
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Is there a way to delete the whole tool table at once? Came in this morning and the tool table was all erased on my 700. There was an operator on the night shift that could not get it going and i was wondering if the tool data got deleted or the machine lost it.
Stuart
Forums Member
#9 | Posted: 11 May 2009 13:58
Reply 
Yes, you can delete the entire file. You do get the "Do you really want to do this" warning though and need to enter a code.

If the tool file has been changed and windows doesn't shut down normally the tool file won't be recompiled at shut down and transferred properly to permanent storage. Next time the control bots, it will see an anomaly between what it thinks it should have and what is there and it will assume the file is corrupted and dump the entire tool file.

It's simple to restore from a backup. I ALWAYS back up my tool file when I make any changes to it, although the issue gets better with each software revision.
twocan
Forums Member
#10 | Posted: 12 May 2009 08:14
Reply 
Stuart,
We use the tool migration and we keep a full chain most of the time. We have around 30 tools that stay in the machine cause they get used alot and we have about 30 more that we change out off and on. Mazak machines are new to us and i have not got everything worked out. The way i see it is after i save the tool files the only thing that will be lost next time is what pocket the tool is actually in. Next ill be working on saving work offsets and tool offsets to its own program number. This is a production machine that is ran in EIA.
toolsntoys4u
Forums Member
#11 | Posted: 13 May 2009 21:24
Reply 
not sure if the following will help but could you try the following:

1. Make sure machine is properly grounded to a separate grounding rod and not building ground
2. Remove the hard-drive and using a USB adapter connected to a PC and scan it for damaged files etc. This adapter could be bought for $30
3. O104 is likely 0, try changing it to 300.
Mazak123
Forums Member
#12 | Posted: 25 Jan 2010 15:54
Reply 
Hey guys, we're working on it. It's intermittent, should only happen where a power failure occurs, not if you turn the control off first, and it has to do with the Arithmetic Logic chip in the computer, not the data that resides in SRAM. Calculations involving tool data are happening all the time, in real time, while the NC is calculating axis movement. That's all I have for now, but we realize it's serious, and thought we had it fixed a number of times already. Don't start playing with parameters, etc. esp the "O" parameters. And backup your work often, until we lick the problem. Thanks.
Stuart
Forums Member
#13 | Posted: 25 Jan 2010 20:08
Reply 
Actually your last software revision increased the length of time allowed for Windoze to write all the data to the hard drive. If you watched Windoze task manager you would note it would say the program was not responding, when in reality it was still chunking along, just taking it's time. If it timed out you lost data, and hence the toolfile was dumped at the next start up. It's been FAR more reliable since the last update. Even when the control gets "stuck" and you have to shut down abnormally you don't always lose the data. Much better than the days of old...
Mazak123
Forums Member
#14 | Posted: 26 Jan 2010 08:18
Reply 
Yes, correct. It still needs to be fixed tho, power failures can occur at any givin time. Thanks for being patient, and others, please stop guessing at fixes, or suggesting other guys try this and that, it can run into bigger issues! By the way, it has nothing to do with MRJ2 controlers! Thanks.
integrexman
Admin
#15 | Posted: 29 Jan 2010 11:35
Reply 
We lost power today and had a Integrex300 and the HyperQuadrex lose there tooldata.
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